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FamiTracker > General > FamiTracker Talk > Rational/integral tempo discussion Owner: jrlepage New post
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Posted: 2011-04-02 20:57  (Last Edited: 2011-04-02 21:06) Reply | Quote
Xyz_39808

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#15253
I think I'll continue here. Even if it's meta-discussion.

nicetas_c wrote:
Xyz_39808 wrote:
He's not anti-perfectionism...
[insert favorite ASCII facepalm here]

yes he unlocked the thread to disguise the crowd, plus said the whole tempo thingy is
jrlepage wrote:

True, it is a bit nitpicky in itself to call trolling on your pedantism.

Also, did your 100% Metroid cover have that extra frame per row? I didn't notice it last I saw the ftm.

[edit:]
Just saw the ftm again. I thought you meant one more frame per patternframe. But yeah, I see the Fxx at the end of the last PatternFrame.

Posted: 2011-04-02 21:02 Reply | Quote
nicetas_c



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#15255
Some of them are purposefully omitted when they should be there, but some like Brinstar, Norfair and Escape have special Fxx commands at the end.

On the contrary, some OSTs have truncated frames e.g. Action 52. They are also called irrational tempi, given the time interval is sufficiently long, in this case, infinite.

Posted: 2011-04-04 23:34  (Last Edited: 2011-04-04 23:41) Reply | Quote
jrlepage
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#15365
Oh gee, I'm contributing productively to this topic.

I'd just like to know if you guys notice any difference between these two NSFs. I did that cover long ago. The original (P-13.ftm) uses speed 3 with tempo 180 all along; the second version (P-13_speed.ftm) uses tempo 150 with speed constantly switching between F02 and F03. I'm playing them both in sync as I write this, and I can hardly hear any difference. If anything, I think using speed changes all the time makes the arp on square 1 sound worse than using 360 BPM.

So yeah, I'd like to know what you guys think, and if you reckon my use of 360 BPM in the original version affects the overall quality of my cover.

Cheers.

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Attachments:
p13.ftm (22 Kb)
p13_speed.ftm (25 Kb)
Posted: 2011-04-04 23:49 Reply | Quote
Xyz_39808

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#15366
No quality difference. Though I haven't done the math, I have a sneaky suspicion that 180 is coincidentally a tempo that leads to an integer of frames per row.

The only thing I hear is when you isolate 2A03 sq 1, on pattern 01 there's more clickiness in the 180tempo for the first rows up to 2C. But that's only when isolated. I still haven't worked out the math for different tempi and nicetas' formula is confusing for me.

Posted: 2011-04-05 01:05 Reply | Quote
rainwarrior

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#15372
180bpm at speed 6 = 5 frames per row

(3600f/m / (4 r/b * 180b/m)) = 5 f/r

So... it's integral. The same as running 150bpm at speed 5.

Posted: 2011-04-05 01:06 Reply | Quote
jrlepage
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#15373
Thanks!

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Posted: 2011-04-05 01:07 Reply | Quote
rainwarrior

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#15374
Oh, you're at speed 3, well, it'll do alternating 3s and 2s (not sure which will come first though), so it'll be the same or almost the same as your other one.

Posted: 2011-04-05 01:09 Reply | Quote
jrlepage
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#15375
F03 then F02 sounds better than the other way around, it seems.

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Posted: 2011-04-05 01:11  (Last Edited: 2011-04-05 01:12) Reply | Quote
tadpole

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#15376
Here's the math behind it.
In NTSC, Tempo = 3600/x (x = frames per quarter note)

3600/20 = 180

So 20 frames per quarter note gives a tempo of 180.

This song uses 8 rows per quarter note.

20/8 = 2.5 -- so each row lasts an average of 2.5 frames.
So Famitracker is already alternating between 2 and 3 frames every row (the same thing that you did).

That's why you hear no difference.

Posted: 2011-04-05 01:13 Reply | Quote
rainwarrior

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#15377
3 on even frames, then 2 on odd frames, deduced via nicetas_c's method. So... it's the same.

Posted: 2011-04-05 01:15 Reply | Quote
jrlepage
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#15378
It is the same, but now we have concrete demonstration of it rather than just the theory behind it.

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Posted: 2011-04-05 06:32  (Last Edited: 2011-04-05 06:32) Reply | Quote
Xyz_39808

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#15393
I still think using rainwarrior's 154 bpm example should be a standard step to check if your non150 tempo would be probablamatic.

[edit:] Unless someone does all the math and makes that chart on integral tempi.

Posted: 2011-04-05 06:59 Reply | Quote
rainwarrior

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#15395
Well, a chart would be pretty big.

The thing is, every integral tempo is accessible from 150bpm by adjusting the speed value, and it is the only bpm where speed = frames per row. It makes it crystal clear when you need to care about frames (when making timed envelopes and arpeggios, etc.) You could look it up in a chart, but all of them are available as various speeds of the 150bpm option.

But I mean, as a start, at four rows per beat, you get this from various frames per row:

speed 1 = 900 bpm
speed 2 = 450 bpm
speed 3 = 300 bpm
speed 4 = 225 bpm
speed 5 = 180 bpm
speed 6 = 150 bpm
speed 7 =~ 128.57 bpm
speed 8 = 112.5 bpm
speed 9 = 100 bpm
etc...

This chart is assuming 4 beats per row, so the max/base tempo at speed 1 is 3600/4 = 900. The subsequent speeds are just dividing from 900.

Maybe you want 3 or 6 beats per row, or something else, start again at the top of the column by dividing it from 3600.


Another way to pick your integral tempo, say you want something close to 87bpm. 900/87 = speed of about 10.3, so your two closest options are speed 10 (90bpm) and 11 (81.8ish).

Posted: 2011-05-06 06:06 Reply | Quote
TechEmporium

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#16874
Because of the math involved. You might as well be saying that 5/8 is the same as 1/2 (when it clearly isn't).

This is also because the tempo values are all exponential to 150 BPM in some way.

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Posted: 2011-05-06 06:43  (Last Edited: 2011-05-06 06:44) Reply | Quote
Delek

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#16879
Chaquan is a bot, that was a copy of a jrlepage's post.

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