I also agree with leaving the hiss in.
If you want to make good-sounding, multi-waveform music then use this; It's much better suited for the purpose.
If you want to track with the hiss that's your business, but don't tell me what MY business is by specifically not letting me disable it.
zephemeros wrote:
Besides, if you wanted to play your music on a real unmodded Famicom the high-pitched sound would be inaudible anyways.
Isn't that a reason specifically FOR making the option to turn it off available? So that you can hear what it'll sound like without the hiss?
Again, unlike the 2A03 phase reset bug or the old VRC7 patches, the N163 hiss is a constant obstacle to composition and basic usage of the trackers, and that, combined with the other reasons stated above, is why it should be possible to turn it off. Not taken out of the tracker altogether, which is why accuracy advocates seem to think. Just let me turn it off, with a warning that doing so isn't the best thing to do accuracy-wise. That way, those who want to leave it on for maximum accuracy can, and those who just want to use FamiTracker as a composing tool and don't want to endure the 15 kHz noise (or those whom it makes physically uneasy and/or disoriented) can do what they want too, without being treated like they can't think for themselves.
It's not an issue of flexibility vs. consistency, it's a matter of letting people choose what's best for themselves.
Actually, yeah, testing out FT, where there is less than 8 channels there is still a ring for each channel setting; I think this may be unintended aliasing of the frequencies that should be inaudible?
Oh god.
Now I REALLY want the hiss left out.
And, well, I really don't see what's so wrong about making the hiss optional. Want accuracy? Leave it on. Don't want accuracy? Turn it off. I don't see the problem here. Really, I don't.
But with the current state of N163 emulation in FT, I dare say that I rather not have N163 emulation at all than to have it like this.
but the old VRC7 patches don't hinder the creative process
and a deafening hiss does
*new VRC7 patches
Actually they pretty much destroyed all the tunes I had written previously for the VRC7. It probably affects me more than your usual user because when I write for the VRC7, I don't use the 2A03 channels for anything but percussion. The new patches have different ADSR, are tinny and most of them completely lack the warmth the old patches had. I would not have written -any- of the tracks that I wrote the way that I did had I known what I know now about the VRC7.
So to me, the new patches are just as substantial a change as N163 having a whine...which is why I maintain that if one is going to have an option to be less accurate for the sake of usability, the other needs to have that same option as well.
For the record, I never brought up the VRC7 patches as being problematic before because I figured we just accepted new developments in emulation accuracy for what it's worth. I don't actually care if people don't actually want to be that picky about accurate emulation anymore, I just want consistency.
I don't see in any way how a toggle for these tw things will hurt anyone...
It sets a precedence that it's okay to use 8channel N163. It is NOT okay. It is a bad idea, and you should bear the consequences of using it. Don't like the crappy N163? Don't use it.
We really ought to be shifting the NSF standard away from the concept that 8channel N163 is a good idea. It should sound like shit. I think jsr's decision reflects that.
[Edit:]
ElHuesudoII wrote:
But with the current state of N163 emulation in FT, I dare say that I rather not have N163 emulation at all than to have it like this.
Further instilling the fact that 8channel N163 sucks. I think this is the proper reaction to this chip's flaws.
Again, you're basically telling ME what I should do. You're forcing your opinion that *I* shouldn't do what YOU think is bad, which is the very basis of why I think the option to choose should exist.
I maintain that a well-worded warning popup upon disabling the whine should be sufficient in letting people know they're making hardware-inaccurate stuff, without resorting to enforcing excruciatingly painful emulation.
It sets a precedence that it's okay to use 8channel N163. It is NOT okay. It is a bad idea, and you should bear the consequences of using it. Don't like the crappy N163? Don't use it.
Check rainwarrior's demo on the previous page. Turn off some channels and check out what happens. The hiss is there, no matter how many channels there are (unless it's only one). It's still there, perfectly audible.
Which means that FT's handling of N163 isn't suitable for composition, so why bother having it at all? It'd be just a feature that's there for completion, but that no one would bother actually using because of how bad it sounds while you compose. There'd be no way of designing sound for it at all, since you can't control how things sound together!
So yes. I stand by my opinion. I rather not have N163 functionality AT ALL than to have it this way.
unlike the [...] old VRC7 patches, the N163 hiss is a constant obstacle to composition and basic usage of the trackers, and that, combined with the other reasons stated above, is why it should be possible to turn it off.
I'd argue that making older tunes sound completely, totally, unchangeably different (and bad) is in fact an obstacle to the basic usage of the tracker.
unlike the [...] old VRC7 patches, the N163 hiss is a constant obstacle to composition and basic usage of the trackers, and that, combined with the other reasons stated above, is why it should be possible to turn it off.
I'd argue that making older tunes sound completely, totally, unchangeably different (and bad) is in fact an obstacle to the basic usage of the tracker.
The new VRC7 patches don't hurt your ears. The hiss does.
Not to mention the new VRC7 patches are still usable instruments. The hiss fucks up any possibility of making a decent sounding instrument in N163, and the way it's being emulated right now, reducing the amount of channels doesn't solve the issue.
The new VRC7 patches don't hurt your ears. The hiss does.
actually it doesn't hurt my ears at all with 6 channels.
ElHuesudoII wrote:
Not to mention the new VRC7 patches are still usable instruments.
Not only do the new VRC7 patches sound horrible, but they break compatibility. Much like how people would not have used the N163 the same way had they known about the whine, I would not have used the VRC7 in the same way had I known that the patches I was using would sound the way they do.
Say what you will about N163 causing you physical pain, I was a bit heartbroken when I found out that my VRC7 tunes sounded as awful as they do with the new patches. It used to be my favorite expansion, now it's one that I don't even like using at all.
Dude I can't believe you're comparing the VRC7 patches to that infernal hiss.
Also, okay, you may not like working with VRC7 because of the patches, fine. But that doesn't compare to how much I despise the hiss, and how I'm beginning to despise N163 because of it.
Seriously. If it's gonna sound like that, and if there's no option to make it the least bit more bearable, then I don't see why should we even have N163 around, and I don't see why should jsr dedicate time and effort to its development if in the end it'll be as unusable as it is now. Might as well drop the expansion completely and move on.
Dude I can't believe you're comparing the VRC7 patches to that infernal hiss.
I'm comparing it because I've played around with N163+whine, and with 6 channels it sounds fine to me. I know you and jrlepage aren't lying when you say you can still hear it 'cuz you guys wouldn't do that, but to me it's literally inaudible...so I'm tempted to say it may very well just be a personal problem.
I mean, I know people who can't even listen to chiptunes at all without instantly getting a headache because of the harsh tones. It's never been the chiptune community's responsibility to round out those harsh tones in order to appeal to them.
It's not the developer's responsibility to make their 3DS games not have 3D-vital bits (ala Super Mario 3D Land) because of the people who can't have 3D turned on at all since it gives them a migraine.
Or maybe I'm in the minority on this and most other people can hear it with 6 channels and less, who knows. I'm certainly capable of hearing high-pitched tones, as I can hear CRT screens plenty fine.
And honestly, I wouldn't care if VRC7 was taken out of FT, because I still use 0.3.5 for VRC7 stuff. So in a way, yes, I do feel the same way about it.
And honestly, I wouldn't care if VRC7 was taken out of FT, because I still use 0.3.5 for VRC7 stuff.
Yeah, but people who want to use N163 won't have much of a choice here unless they want to keep beta 3 around, and beta 3's N163 has a bunch of bugs around.
And honestly, I wouldn't care if VRC7 was taken out of FT, because I still use 0.3.5 for VRC7 stuff.
Yeah, but people who want to use N163 won't have much of a choice here unless they want to keep beta 3 around, and beta 3's N163 has a bunch of bugs around.
then maybe it's time for a version branch.
One version for idealistic N163 and old VRC7 patches and stereo and multiple expansions and whatever other crazy features people can imagine, with the only downside being lack of NSF export because NSF doesn't support a lot of that
and one version for realistic everything, with NSF export.
The only downside being that we'd have to find more developers for an undertaking like that. Not impossible, but probably difficult.
I understand that this is subject to some debate, more than I expected perhaps, but it's at least good to see that my point here was not completely dismissed for being overly pedantic or something. This flaw of the chip is too big just to be ignored, that's why I bothered adding it at all (not to piss people off, I promise).
Here is an example of a tune being played back on a real namco cart, for reference: http://nicoviewer.net/sm4908671. There is no way to turn that noise off other than decreasing the channel count or changing the filter options (to simulate a TV for example) which still won't remove it completely, so my point is that if you don't like it then N163 is simply a bad option. It may have been unknown until now, but that's how it is.
Really, the only argument I can see in favor of an option here is that it's wanted by a majority (for reasons I mostly don't agree to; given the goal of this program, rainwarrior pretty much sums it up), but well, that might be good enough.
