jsr, I think if he doesn't post it, somebody will end up doing it later. Unfortunately, considering that Famitracker is open-source, it was only a matter of time before a tool like this surfaced. HertzDevil even wrote a similar tool a while ago (though he decided to keep it to himself).
Also I reuploaded the FTMs that you so thoughtfully removed from my previous post, because I own the rights to this material, and so I have every right to post the decompiled version (as well as the original version) if I so desire.
I fully stand behind the statement that one shouldn't upload FTMs that they do not own the rights to, however. I will make sure that any FTM shared without permission goes down.
And as for others, it doesn't catch a few settings, like instrument-side FDS modulation, machine speed, or tempo...
EDIT: Tired to replicate the bug on 0.4.2 (not Beta) and uploaded results here (in this case it does catch machine speed). 0.4.2 Beta 2 NSFs give me sound driver failures...
I was impressed when I saw the resulting FTM, but it seems it doesn't work if the NSF contains expansions. Still, really nice.
EDIT: Oh wait, did I miss something?
It doesn't work with multi-track as in multi-song, not multi-track as in multiple expansion.
EDIT: I tested it on danooct1's One Winged Angel cover and it doesn't work. The result is unreadable in Famitracker. Also, the attached file doesn't work. Maybe bankswitch = fail? *shrugs*
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"im going to continue making this crazy stuff then after a while my style will be so sick that you will be like damn suuun that shit is so sick i dont even get it. i will be like bro its ok.. you dont have to." -omgdonut
I don't understand what the problem would be. JSR's post made it seem like such a tool is somehow taboo. There's a wealth of knowledge to be gained on the matter of constructing instruments and elaborate use of effects.
I suppose there's the concern that having the FTM proves you're the person who created the file no longer being a thing, but how much 'music theft' really goes on in here? In art communities, it's common to have some jerk take a picture you have done and upload it to their account, claiming to have created it themselves. Having your .psd or .sai or whatever will prove, in a dispute, that you created it, since you have the work document.
Considering that, with this tool, you're effectively giving out your work document whenever you upload a .nsf, someone could in theory claim to be the author of something when they are not. The solution to this is, i believe, iterative saving. Have the previous versions of your song while it was in progress to back up your claim as the original owner.
I see the complications of having such a tool around, but the benefits to new users of famitracker far outweigh the potential abuse of such a thing. Keep backup saves if you're concerned. I dunno.
I'm actually curious what everyone thinks on the matter. Please do tell!
I don't understand what the problem would be. JSR's post made it seem like such a tool is somehow taboo. There's a wealth of knowledge to be gained on the matter of constructing instruments and elaborate use of effects.
I suppose there's the concern that having the FTM proves you're the person who created the file no longer being a thing, but how much 'music theft' really goes on in here? In art communities, it's common to have some jerk take a picture you have done and upload it to their account, claiming to have created it themselves. Having your .psd or .sai or whatever will prove, in a dispute, that you created it, since you have the work document.
Considering that, with this tool, you're effectively giving out your work document whenever you upload a .nsf, someone could in theory claim to be the author of something when they are not. The solution to this is, i believe, iterative saving. Have the previous versions of your song while it was in progress to back up your claim as the original owner.
I see the complications of having such a tool around, but the benefits to new users of famitracker far outweigh the potential abuse of such a thing. Keep backup saves if you're concerned. I dunno.
I'm actually curious what everyone thinks on the matter. Please do tell!
This sums it up.
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"im going to continue making this crazy stuff then after a while my style will be so sick that you will be like damn suuun that shit is so sick i dont even get it. i will be like bro its ok.. you dont have to." -omgdonut
Perhaps it would help to look at it from a different angle. NSFs are programs. Actual NES ROMs. The only things missing from them compared to ordinary ROMs are input and graphics. Other than that, they can be considered a program that simply plays the music you programmed it to play.
With that in mind, consider the FTM as the source to this program. Just like a .cpp file is (at least part of) the source to a C++ executable, the FTM represents the code that was entered to output the NSF file you get when you export.
Now, do you see the problem with anyone being able to acquire the source to a large number of NSFs?
I don't think "music theft" is really a concern in this situation - although it could be a potential issue, this community is small enough that it would not go unnoticed for very long - but intellectual property, and the right of a musician to decide whether they want to distribute the source to their program or not, are definitely compromised by the existence (and availability) of such a tool.
That is why I take it upon myself (as does jsr I'm sure) to take down any decompiled FTM that I see on this forum (after making sure that it is indeed a decompiled FTM posted without authorisation). And also I understand jsr's concern about this being posted here. But I stand behind what I said: with Famitracker and its NSF driver being open-source, it was only a matter of time before such a tool was made and published, so I don't see the point in trying to playing a cat-and-mouse game here.
I'm gonna start my own site where we don't promote dickish behavior. With blackjack. And hookers.
Also, whenever nicetas gets around to it, his decompiler should also work with it2nsf generated nsfs. So there's that to look forward to
[edit:expect edits with a high traffic thread]
JP, I want you to consider that programming scenario if the compiler was open source. I don't believe the argument holds at all
[edit2:]
it's not planned to be unreleased forever and only his personal gem; he just wants to finish it completely first
My opinion... this is kinda cool, but it's a problem for people who don't want to make the FTMs available, since you can practically use the tool to generate such FTM from the distributed NSF without many major changes.
That's the main concern here. I'm not saying that everyone will be "stealing" stuff or something like that, but it makes it pointless to keep the source FTM away from the public if there's a tool available that can decompile the NSF and turn it into an FTM, which really resembles the original file. Maybe you'd lose instrument names or other information, but that's nothing compared to all the song data and pattern information.
Well, that's what I think.
_______________________ This version of Dr. Mustache is outdated. Please download latest version here. [Dropbox (my FT stuff)]
In reality since it's specifically the nsfdriver which is open source that means anyone can open any nsf and see it's secrets if you're savvy enough. The decompiler just presents that info by putting it into an ftm. This program changes nothing about the secrecy of how a file was made, it just makes it more accessible to those who don't want to learn exactly how famitracker's nsfdriver works
Yeah, even an NSF Import shows a lot of this info. However, turning the NSF into an FTM similar to the original means it'll be a bigger issue, since now it's more easily accessible by people.
_______________________ This version of Dr. Mustache is outdated. Please download latest version here. [Dropbox (my FT stuff)]
I think this kind of tool is fine. As always, ownership rights remain unchanged. The availability of a tool like this is irrelevant to that. Don't use stuff that isn't yours without permission.
It's foolish to think of NSF as a way to secure your ideas. Anything in an NSF can be duplicated. Some people create effective tools for doing so. (With greater difficulty, anything you can hear in an MP3 can be duplicated too. It's just a different degree of facility.)
I make all my FTMs public anyway, so this tool doesn't really affect me, personally. :P
I brought up 'music theft' specifically because i've seen a few threads in the show off your work section where someone would only post a .nsf. The reason given is generally, they want you to listen to it, but not look at it. Hiding behind a wall to keep the source document theirs and theirs alone.
Previously, the only way to get a look at the specifics of a song was to use, i think rainwarrior's nsf import version of famitracker? It was dirty, but let you look at specific instruments, volume leveling and the like. With this new tool available, all of that changes. it plops out what is effectively the work document.
I mean, i understand the concern. If i put up a drawing, and someone could just feed that picture into a program and end up with my .psd with all the layers and blend information, i'd feel a bit violated. The only solution to THAT, is for people to not post ftm's or nsf's at all, and post mp3's or some garbage. That's unacceptable too!
Sort of ruins the magic that is a 16kb file that has an awesome song in it.
I like the tool, and feel that it is beneficial to aspiring composers. It does bring up a lot of questions though.
As mentioned above, the .nsf and famitracker are open source. Anyone with the knowhow could already take a .nsf and look at it, and see the song inside. There never was any composition privacy. People just sort of assumed there was. The only thing that changes is that the uninitiated, like myself, now have a way to look at the details of one's composition.
anyway about the whole "uploading ftm modules that aren't yours thing", i think it's fair to be able to at least see the source if you wanted to, i mean it's not like you are stealing the song and claiming it's yours or ripping off their song. maybe even posting the source isn't too bad but maybe the gray area/boundary line is using a song without asking them (but usually you can just use the mp3 or nsf you have anyway so what the heck.....................................)
also i think it's cool to look at how other people do instruments and mixing, after all we wouldn't want to be greedy meanies and keep everything a secret, right???????????
can't wait until this decompiler can decode mml and it/s3m2nsf files . maybe even commercial nsfs from games! (tho that might be another completely different topic on copyright!!!!)
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what is this 8 bit poop crap
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))))))